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	<title>Comments on: Atheism vs Agnosticism</title>
	<link>http://www.individualsovereigntist.com/2007/11/28/atheism-vs-agnosticism/</link>
	<description></description>
	<pubDate>Wed, 10 Mar 2010 11:52:40 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Kim</title>
		<link>http://www.individualsovereigntist.com/2007/11/28/atheism-vs-agnosticism/#comment-543</link>
		<dc:creator>Kim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Sep 2008 16:30:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.individualsovereigntist.com/2007/11/28/atheism-vs-agnosticism/#comment-543</guid>
		<description>The real meaning of atheist is someone who beleive in their heart that there is no God. (See Psalms 14 vs 1) The Fool hath said in his heart there is no God. 

God has manifest Him self in everyone, some people choose to beleive and some don't.

Do you every stop to wonder how all this came about, are you one of those who beleive that things just happen and there is nothing behind our creation.

My friend there is a creator, things didn't just happen, there is someone behind all of this. I rather live and beleive that there is a God, than die, then find out that there is. 

If you don't beleive in God you better make sure that you are right because if you are not ,then you  better be ready to feel the wrath of God

it will reveal to you sooner are later

Jesus christ is real, He's not dead He's still alive.

Peace be with you
God bless you all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The real meaning of atheist is someone who beleive in their heart that there is no God. (See Psalms 14 vs 1) The Fool hath said in his heart there is no God. </p>
<p>God has manifest Him self in everyone, some people choose to beleive and some don&#8217;t.</p>
<p>Do you every stop to wonder how all this came about, are you one of those who beleive that things just happen and there is nothing behind our creation.</p>
<p>My friend there is a creator, things didn&#8217;t just happen, there is someone behind all of this. I rather live and beleive that there is a God, than die, then find out that there is. </p>
<p>If you don&#8217;t beleive in God you better make sure that you are right because if you are not ,then you  better be ready to feel the wrath of God</p>
<p>it will reveal to you sooner are later</p>
<p>Jesus christ is real, He&#8217;s not dead He&#8217;s still alive.</p>
<p>Peace be with you<br />
God bless you all.</p>
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		<title>By: John Scott</title>
		<link>http://www.individualsovereigntist.com/2007/11/28/atheism-vs-agnosticism/#comment-105</link>
		<dc:creator>John Scott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Dec 2007 15:34:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.individualsovereigntist.com/2007/11/28/atheism-vs-agnosticism/#comment-105</guid>
		<description>LOL! Oh I love that!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>LOL! Oh I love that!</p>
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		<title>By: IncrediBILL</title>
		<link>http://www.individualsovereigntist.com/2007/11/28/atheism-vs-agnosticism/#comment-103</link>
		<dc:creator>IncrediBILL</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Dec 2007 21:26:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.individualsovereigntist.com/2007/11/28/atheism-vs-agnosticism/#comment-103</guid>
		<description>John,

Did you ever hear the story about about the dyslexic agnostic insomniac?

He stayed up all night when he couldn't sleep contemplating the existence of DOG!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John,</p>
<p>Did you ever hear the story about about the dyslexic agnostic insomniac?</p>
<p>He stayed up all night when he couldn&#8217;t sleep contemplating the existence of DOG!</p>
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		<title>By: kerrin</title>
		<link>http://www.individualsovereigntist.com/2007/11/28/atheism-vs-agnosticism/#comment-99</link>
		<dc:creator>kerrin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Dec 2007 19:11:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.individualsovereigntist.com/2007/11/28/atheism-vs-agnosticism/#comment-99</guid>
		<description>By "rejecting" a truth claim such as: "Flying Spaghetti Monsters exist" not be declaring it as false?
Using Aristotle's logic: 
&lt;blockquote&gt;Nothing can be and not be at the same time in the same respect&lt;/blockquote&gt;
which is a tried and tested philosophy (I don't think it's be disproved), would you not by "rejecting" this truth claim as false be affirming the opposite: "Flying Spaghetti Monsters do not exist"?
Would you not instead have to reject the presupposition that truth claims can even be made?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>By &#8220;rejecting&#8221; a truth claim such as: &#8220;Flying Spaghetti Monsters exist&#8221; not be declaring it as false?<br />
Using Aristotle&#8217;s logic: </p>
<blockquote><p>Nothing can be and not be at the same time in the same respect</p></blockquote>
<p>which is a tried and tested philosophy (I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s be disproved), would you not by &#8220;rejecting&#8221; this truth claim as false be affirming the opposite: &#8220;Flying Spaghetti Monsters do not exist&#8221;?<br />
Would you not instead have to reject the presupposition that truth claims can even be made?</p>
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		<title>By: John Scott</title>
		<link>http://www.individualsovereigntist.com/2007/11/28/atheism-vs-agnosticism/#comment-57</link>
		<dc:creator>John Scott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Nov 2007 16:56:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.individualsovereigntist.com/2007/11/28/atheism-vs-agnosticism/#comment-57</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;McCarthy-era anti-communist&lt;/blockquote&gt;

That could definitely be a cause for it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>McCarthy-era anti-communist</p></blockquote>
<p>That could definitely be a cause for it.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Child</title>
		<link>http://www.individualsovereigntist.com/2007/11/28/atheism-vs-agnosticism/#comment-54</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Child</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Nov 2007 16:41:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.individualsovereigntist.com/2007/11/28/atheism-vs-agnosticism/#comment-54</guid>
		<description>&#62; But since the 60’s, from the time I was around, most folks I know used the word to refer to people who denied the existence of god.

Of course - I would guess almost exclusively because of the McCarthy-era anti-communist (and by extension anti-atheist) propaganda. And probably why there's a such a difference either side of the pond.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&gt; But since the 60’s, from the time I was around, most folks I know used the word to refer to people who denied the existence of god.</p>
<p>Of course - I would guess almost exclusively because of the McCarthy-era anti-communist (and by extension anti-atheist) propaganda. And probably why there&#8217;s a such a difference either side of the pond.</p>
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		<title>By: John Scott</title>
		<link>http://www.individualsovereigntist.com/2007/11/28/atheism-vs-agnosticism/#comment-51</link>
		<dc:creator>John Scott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Nov 2007 16:09:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.individualsovereigntist.com/2007/11/28/atheism-vs-agnosticism/#comment-51</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;“Strong” and “Weak” were introduced for the sake of clarity in the 90s (previously “positive” and “negative”, respectively), but that doesn’t mean that before that it only meant “Strong Atheism”.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Indeed, some philosophers deny that "strong" atheists even exist.  G. W. Foote, an atheist, challenged a critic to refer him to a strong atheist (i.e., somebody who denied the existence of god).

In philosophy, especially the older stuff, there is a lot of usage which indicates the author was simply not believing in god. 

But since the 60's, from the time I was around, most folks I know used the word to refer to people who denied the existence of god. 

&lt;blockquote&gt;There I completely agree.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

See, and who says that nobody can reach an agreement on the Internet? 

&lt;blockquote&gt;I think perhaps we can both agree that if we’re arguing over meanings of words (when it sounds like our beliefs are very similar, if not identical), then the words are the problem.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Precisely, the words here have lost their usefulness due to meaning pollution. 

That is the point I set out to make, but feel I may have not done so effectively. 

Anyhow, we do seem to be in agreement. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>“Strong” and “Weak” were introduced for the sake of clarity in the 90s (previously “positive” and “negative”, respectively), but that doesn’t mean that before that it only meant “Strong Atheism”.</p></blockquote>
<p>Indeed, some philosophers deny that &#8220;strong&#8221; atheists even exist.  G. W. Foote, an atheist, challenged a critic to refer him to a strong atheist (i.e., somebody who denied the existence of god).</p>
<p>In philosophy, especially the older stuff, there is a lot of usage which indicates the author was simply not believing in god. </p>
<p>But since the 60&#8217;s, from the time I was around, most folks I know used the word to refer to people who denied the existence of god. </p>
<blockquote><p>There I completely agree.</p></blockquote>
<p>See, and who says that nobody can reach an agreement on the Internet? </p>
<blockquote><p>I think perhaps we can both agree that if we’re arguing over meanings of words (when it sounds like our beliefs are very similar, if not identical), then the words are the problem.</p></blockquote>
<p>Precisely, the words here have lost their usefulness due to meaning pollution. </p>
<p>That is the point I set out to make, but feel I may have not done so effectively. </p>
<p>Anyhow, we do seem to be in agreement. <img src='http://www.individualsovereigntist.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /></p>
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		<title>By: John Scott</title>
		<link>http://www.individualsovereigntist.com/2007/11/28/atheism-vs-agnosticism/#comment-50</link>
		<dc:creator>John Scott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Nov 2007 15:58:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.individualsovereigntist.com/2007/11/28/atheism-vs-agnosticism/#comment-50</guid>
		<description>Hi Jill and thanks for posting. :) 

I think I may not be communicating as effectively as I had hoped. 

There is a huge difference, in my opinion. Sure, effectively neither believe in a god. But how they reached that position is vastly different. 

One reached the position by choice. The other is "atheist" by sheer virtue of not knowing of the question of god's existence. 

Let's draw some analogies. 

Bob is against the war in Iraq. He's a pacifist. His two year old is also not for the war in Iraq, by virtue of he doesn't know what war is, and doesn't know what Iraq is. 

If we allowed pacifists to redefine "pacifism" to be "anybody who is not pro-war", then it would include one hell of a lot of people. 

It would render the word "pacifism" meaningless, and it makes a mockery of a concept that we hold dear - an individual's right to make a decision and define oneself. 

If somebody wants to self identify as an atheist, fine. I'm all for it. But expanding the meaning to include people who have not made any decision on the matter and have not self-identified with it, is hardly fair.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Jill and thanks for posting. <img src='http://www.individualsovereigntist.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>I think I may not be communicating as effectively as I had hoped. </p>
<p>There is a huge difference, in my opinion. Sure, effectively neither believe in a god. But how they reached that position is vastly different. </p>
<p>One reached the position by choice. The other is &#8220;atheist&#8221; by sheer virtue of not knowing of the question of god&#8217;s existence. </p>
<p>Let&#8217;s draw some analogies. </p>
<p>Bob is against the war in Iraq. He&#8217;s a pacifist. His two year old is also not for the war in Iraq, by virtue of he doesn&#8217;t know what war is, and doesn&#8217;t know what Iraq is. </p>
<p>If we allowed pacifists to redefine &#8220;pacifism&#8221; to be &#8220;anybody who is not pro-war&#8221;, then it would include one hell of a lot of people. </p>
<p>It would render the word &#8220;pacifism&#8221; meaningless, and it makes a mockery of a concept that we hold dear - an individual&#8217;s right to make a decision and define oneself. </p>
<p>If somebody wants to self identify as an atheist, fine. I&#8217;m all for it. But expanding the meaning to include people who have not made any decision on the matter and have not self-identified with it, is hardly fair.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Child</title>
		<link>http://www.individualsovereigntist.com/2007/11/28/atheism-vs-agnosticism/#comment-49</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Child</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Nov 2007 15:44:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.individualsovereigntist.com/2007/11/28/atheism-vs-agnosticism/#comment-49</guid>
		<description>Entirely my mistake re anti-theism. Tis a quagmire, this definitions lark. :)

&#62; If you look at the history of the word, it almost universally indicated a believe that god did not exist, up until the 1990s.

That's quite a leap from your cited source, John :). "Strong" and "Weak" were introduced for the sake of clarity in the 90s (previously "positive" and "negative", respectively), but that doesn't mean that before that it only meant "Strong Atheism".

Wikipedia may not be a perfect source, but as you're already happily citing it ... :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_atheism

"Weak" atheism was what came first ... a couple of centuries before "strong" atheism. Historically, it has meant first and foremost the lack of belief in gods. A subset of that, of course, is the minority that explicitly deny the existence of gods.

&#62; Just curious, what distinction do you draw between your position and that of an agnostic?

Technically I'm an agnostic atheist (or an agnostic non-theist, for the sake of clarity). I don't believe in any gods (hence atheist or nontheist) and don't believe it's possible to disprove them (hence technically agnostic).

&#62; I think the word “atheist” has come to an end of its useful life.

There I completely agree. Some people do think, when I have identified myself as "atheist" in the past, that that means that I deny the existence of gods. Which is rubbish. I find "nontheist" makes my position much clearer.

&#62; That definition of atheism would render it meaningless

It is meaningless. Talking about the lack of theism, whatever specific label you want to give it, as though it were a religion, is like talking about not collecting stamps being a hobby.

Knowing how stubborn you are when you argue, I know you're not going to change your mind, and neither am I (because we both know we're right, of course). I think perhaps we can both agree that if we're arguing over meanings of words (when it sounds like our beliefs are very similar, if not identical), then the words are the problem.</description>
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		<title>By: Jill</title>
		<link>http://www.individualsovereigntist.com/2007/11/28/atheism-vs-agnosticism/#comment-48</link>
		<dc:creator>Jill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Nov 2007 15:43:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.individualsovereigntist.com/2007/11/28/atheism-vs-agnosticism/#comment-48</guid>
		<description>I want to voice my support of the default-position view of atheism. Everyone is born an atheist without bizarre concepts of of supernatural being. There is no substantive difference between the default position and the position of the atheist.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I want to voice my support of the default-position view of atheism. Everyone is born an atheist without bizarre concepts of of supernatural being. There is no substantive difference between the default position and the position of the atheist.</p>
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